Catholic Defender's Community

[Metal1633]

Amongst Saturday Sabbath Keepers there is sometime put forward the notion that the Catholic Church violated God's Law and instituted Sunday as the Day of Worship. In doing so they are admitting (without realizing it)that the earliest Christians were Catholics.

First lets post some scriptures...

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Mark 2:24-28
And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Galatians 3:13-14
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

Lets see what the Earliest Christians thought of this...

St Ignatius, a man who as a child met Jesus Christ, was a friend to the Apostle Peter and was ordained by the Apostle John as Bishop of Antioch, wrote in his first century Epistle to the Ephesians:

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death -- whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master -- how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." ... Be ye salted in Him, lest any one among you should be corrupted, since by your savour ye shall be convicted. It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God."

Letter of Barnabas 15:6-8, written in A.D. 74, (Barnabas the Egyptian, not the Apostle) at the end of a discussion on the old Jewish Sabbath vs. the Christian Lord's Day, wrote:

"We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead."

From the first century Didache, Chapter 14, "Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day":

"But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations."

Justin Martyr says the same in his description of the Mass. He wrote: "On the day called the Feast of the Sun, all who live in towns or in the country assemble in one place, and the memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the Prophets are read as time permits.....

We celebrate the Lord's Day, the day when Jesus Christ walked out of His tomb and the fruits of fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies were made clear. We are no longer under the Old Covenant Law, The Mosaic Law is not binding on Christians, aside from those aspects rooted in Natural Law and God's Eternal Law, expressed by Christ in Love of God and Neighbor.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11:
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Even the Jews' Talmud acknowledges that Christians worship on Sunday. From Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man [Jesus Christ], who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after the Sabbath."
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Malachi 2:7 For the lips of the priest shall keep knowledge, and they shall seek the law at his mouth: because he is the angel of the Lord of hosts.

[RolandJS]

...the Catholic Church violated God's Law and instituted Sunday as the Day of Worship. In doing so they are admitting (without realizing it) that the earliest Christians were Catholics.
metal1633
We admit NO such thing. At best, the seeds of Catholicism and Orthodoxy began before the last apostle died. According to some sources, at worst, Catholicism & Orthodoxy attempted to divert Christendom; however, I now believe Catholicism & Orthodoxy are the two largest branches off of the TreeTrunk.
roland


Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
metal1633
This has nothing to do with Saturday or Sunday by itself.
Both sides issue a cloud of verse clumps to prove Saturday or Sunday.
roland


John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
metal1633
This has nothing to do with Saturday or Sunday by itself.
Both sides issue tradition-mixed verse clumps to prove Saturday or Sunday.
roland


Mark 2:24-28
And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
metal1633
This does nothing whatsoever to eliminate Saturday or bring in Sunday.
The Lord of the Sabbath, Himself kept the Sabbath, Saturday.
Now, elsewhere, we can discuss IF apostles did indeed make a change.
roland

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
metal1533
So what? Other verses indicated they attended services on Saturday, as was their custom. This is not a declaration that Sunday officially replaced Saturday.
roland


1 Corinthians 16:2
Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
metal1633
Precisely! They did helping other gatherings on Sunday in order to not divert the normal Sabbath services.
Still, other verses indicated they attended services on Saturday, as was their custom. This is still not a declaration that Sunday officially replaced Saturday.
roland


Galatians 3:13-14
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
metal1633
This does not indicate Sunday replaced Saturday; both sides here also bring in tradition-mixed verse clumps to further their points.
roland


Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days
metal1633
This concerns JUDGING one another's conduct on Sabbath or annual Holy Days; taking on God's job of discerning what is correct and incorrect concerning a servant of the Lord's.
roland


Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.
metal1633
This is a special event concerning the future Day of the Lord.
It is not Saturday or Sunday.
roland

Lets see what the Earliest Christians thought of this...
St Ignatius
Letter of Barnabas
Didache
Justin Martyr
metal1633
We do not recognize the authority of BigThree to speak on behalf of Christ and/or on behalf of all Christendom. Since BigThree believes likewise of us -- we are at an impasse.
Also, just because inhouse sources friendly to Catholicism say X, does not mean X is automatically True or false. Nothing on this earth makes X True or false; tis only what God has ordained as True is True. If God ordained X to be True, then and only then is X True.
roland


2 Corinthians 3:7-11:
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
metal1633
What does this have to do with the Commandment given to us by our God? Again, this verse clump is an attempt by the BigThree to justify Sunday.
roland


Even the Jews' Talmud acknowledges that Christians worship on Sunday. From Abhodah Zarah, 6a, we read: "He is called a Christian who follows the false teachings of that man [Jesus Christ], who taught them to celebrate the feast on the first day of the Sabbath, that is, to worship on the first day after the Sabbath."
metal1633
When proof-quoting's favorable, your Group trots out quotes here and there. Oh yes, we over here do that exact same thing too. Both sides trot out favorable snippits and overlook and explain away unfavorable snippits.
roland
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[RolandJS]

I emailed metal1633 that my response is here.
He emailed back, saying since DCF's thread died, he's letting this thread die also.

Ok, closed and archived.

Roland